Posted by: George () on Wed Sep 12 12:10:49 2007

> > > George:
> > >
> > > A few quick comments and questions. First, as an initial observation, you must be joking that Jack will lose credibility if disagrees with Shawn's views (and of course you are referring to Shawn's comments). I certainly don't hearing you saying the reverse, namely that Shawn will lose credibility despite that he sees things only his way and refuses to consider Jack's analysis and video demonstrations.
> > >
> > > Second, you may wish to call it a "hitch" in Sosa's swing, which is fine, but you need to describe and define exactly what mechanics and forces are involved in the "hitch." As you know, Jack has defined and explained Sosa's swing as containing the key elements of PLT, THT and CHP. So four questions for you in this regard:
> > >
> > > 1) (Rearward/Downward/Both) -- Based on the videos of Sosa's swing, do you agree with Shawn (that there was only a downward movement of the bat) or Jack (that there is a rearward and downward movement of the bat to the lag position)?
> > >
> > > 2) (PLT) -- Is Sosa's early bat movement BEFORE shoulder rotation something other than PLT, as Jack defines PLT? If so, decribe the forces that are being applied to the bat BEFORE shoulder rotation, which causes the bat to accelerate toward the catcher.
> > >
> > > 3) (THT) -- As shoulder rotation begins and the rear elbow lowers to vertical, what force is being applied to the handle of the bat through the top hand, causing the bat to move rearward/downward? Or do you believe that the top hand applies no force to the bat as the elbow lowers?
> > >
> > > 4) (CHP) -- Do you agree that Sosa has a CHP to contact? If not, why?
> > >
> > > Brian
> >
> >
> > Brian. I appreciate your constructive incite. As such, it is not my wish to disrespect Jack's knowledge or his opinions. But it is my opinon that it is okay to disagree. But it is not in the best interest to act as though someone who is clearly making a sincere effort to study/review dynamics viewpoint is cast away is if he is coming from leftfield. And I believe you know what I am saying, as only certain opinions make it to the board because of the screening process.
> >
> > In answering your questions I share the following observation.
> >
> > 1) There is an angled/drop collapse of both arms. This represents a hitch which is a swing fault. In general this swing fault is not desired because the hands have to go back up to a good hitting position. Some advanced hitters use a hitch or trigering mechanism
> > but to connect a hitch with desired hitting technique is questionable at best. I would agree with Shawn. But I do see where the bat shifts positions from where Jack is looking. But I believe that to be a by product of the hitch, not a deliberate cocking of the wrists or THT which would be consistent with rearward acceleration as evidenced in Manny Ramirez's side view. Note that if you watch Ramirez, his hands go up first and into the rearward dynamics Jack preaches.
> >
> > 2) Same as one, only it is not acceleration back, but a function of getting the bat to a launch angle. So there are seperate acts occuring as opposed to THT which is one continuous movement. Defined as a backward force (pulling the bow) and a resulting forward force. Sosa is placing his bat into a launch position and using more upperbody strength like Konerko and Thome.
> >
> > 3) It is my belief that the bottom and top hand apply as equal force as possible (downward gravity) considering Sosa being right handed likely has more strength in his right hand. Both hands are being pushed down back in unison. I do not believe that Sosa is using opposing forces because his bat does not wrap, but instead drops/lowers. (As a function of the stride, the hands almost have to go back (but there is not necessarily rearward accelaration) that creates batspeed. Further Sammy Sosa always had batspeed, even as a White Sox player. What he did not have was timing. Thus batspeed (among other tools) got him the major leagues. Timing improvement, steroids, HGH....is what kept him up here.
> >
> > 4) I do believe Sosa has a circular hand path. But so did Al Kaline, Carl Yastremski, and Reggie Jackson. Each hitter for a significant part of their career hit with the bat completely vertical and looped the bat to the ball while using leg drive. Jason Giambi is perhaps the best example of a power hitter that does not use much THT. Someone put up some video months back of the side view of a number of hitters. If you can view that footage you will see what I am refering to. But once again it would help to zoom into the hands on an extreme closeup to see if the hands cock significantly which would more likely prove the opposing force that leads to rearward acceleration.
>
> <<<Brian. I appreciate your constructive incite. As such, it is not my wish to disrespect Jack's knowledge or his opinions. But it is my opinon that it is okay to disagree. But it is not in the best interest to act as though someone who is clearly making a sincere effort to study/review dynamics viewpoint is cast away is if he is coming from leftfield. And I believe you know what I am saying, as only certain opinions make it to the board because of the screening process.>>>
>
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> George:
>
> You are welcome to disagree and have your own opinion (which you have done freely on this site), but your comment about screening was completely unwarranted and untrue. The screening process eliminates the hundreds of spam, porn, mortgage, off topic, mean-spirited or harassing type posts. Your and Shawn's posts were APPROVED, which disagreed with Jack sometimes in a demeaning manner. Two of your posts to moved from new topics to replies (do not start a new thread when responding to a prior post or telling Shawn what a great thing he said in a prior post; make it a reply instead). So please stick to the issue of batting mechanics and not this other nonsense, or we will enforce the policy.
>
> Second, I appreciate the effort to respond to the questions. I disagree with most of what you wrote, but I think the different views can be summed up like this: you/Shawn mutually believe that the ONLY force applied to the bat is CHP. Of course, CHP was defined and described by Jack many years ago as a core principle, but not the only essential principle.
>
> You also believe that a static, stationary bat will produce the same bat speed as a swing that uses pre-launch mechanics to generate early bat speed. In essence, you believe that if the bat is fixed/welded in a hortizontal position at the rear elbow that shoulder rotation ALONE will create all bat speed.
>
> As Jack and Tom explained, this reasoning, however, is flawed. Bonds/Sosa/other great hitters' bat moves about 200-250 degrees while the shoulders only rotate about 90 degrees. Thus, another mechanic besides shoulder rotation is creating the additional 100-150 degrees of bat movement.
>
> You describe this additional 150 degree movement as a hitch (or a flaw), despite that the greatest hitters are the ones with this so-called "flaw." Jack describes that this additional movement is essential to generate early bat speed before the shoulders start to rotate. In fact, it is common component of many great hitters today, not a hitch or flaw.
>
> In contrast, few great hitters use a static, stationary bat & welded wheel movement (i.e., bat movement solely from shoulder rotation as if the shoulder/arm/bat are locked together) as you promote.
>
> You also have not considered the importance of transfer mechanics. Many hitters (especially younger kids through high school/college that Jack routinely works with) have good shoulder rotation (90 degrees or more), but have lesser bat speed and weaker hitting results. Why? The answer is because proper transfer mechanics are essential to have a high level swing. Transfer mechanics ensure that the arms/bat do not become 'disconnected' from shoulder rotation.
>
> There is more to it guys that just having shoulder rotation!!
>

Brian. Once again, no offense as my intent was to share my thoughts rather than offend Mr. Mankin or yourself. And though I understand your moving my post down, it was my intent that it would be seen easier by others. But since that should not be done, I will respect the rules of the site.

With regard to the launch position, it was only my thought to share that Sosa's movements were not responsible for an increase in batspeed or the same increase as Manny Ramirez. Further Jack's bat illustration with regard to his product to me differs from what Sosa is doing. It is further my belief that hitters like Manny Ramirez and the other hitters I highlighted have more in common with the rearward discussion than Sosa.

Thus I believe the model for discussion could have been some hitter other than Sosa. That is just my opinion. But since it is obvious that we do not have enough other posters input and You and Jack appear to feel Manny Ramirez and Sosa are exhibiting the same rearward benefit, my effort in convincing/questioning otherwise has fallen on deaf ear.

Respectfully, I look forward to the next topic in a somewhat less combative form.

Best regards,
George