Bat Speed -- Baseball Hitting Forum

Posted by: BHL (Knight1285@aol.com) on Fri Apr 15 00:21:36 2005

> > > > > > > > > > Obviously, much of what you are saying is correct. But, the comment, ["torque" and the "transfer of rotational energy" (via a circular hand-path) are the ONLY forces acting on the bat that causes the bat-head to undergo angular displacement (develop bat speed)], is not. There is so much more. There are many 'GREAT' hitters who are 'linear' hitters. Hitting isn't all about power! Alot, of these theories would have MANY players "pulling" their hands to the baseball - not "throwing" them. Weight-shift or rotational, that's what creates bat speed... getting your hands to where the ball is going to be in the hitting zone as fast as possible. Try this: NOT rotating at all - and just throwing the hands. The best hitters hit the ball the hardest, the most often. Barry Bonds rotates 'off' the ball, not to it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Question/Comment:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >>> Jack,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > To me, after reading your material, it seems that in order for a person to develop batspeed through torque and rotation, they would be very conscious that they are doing so. I feel that if torque and rotation were to be used, the batter would need to KNOWINGLY apply these forces... they are not natural movements.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Many of the games best hitters (i.e. Ken Griffey, Jr., Mark McGwire, Mike Piazza, Nomar Garciaparra, Barry Bonds, etc.) have stated how they develop batspeed, whether it is Weight Shift, Staying inside the ball, Attacking the ball, Cracking the whip, etc., and none of them have said that they use rotation and torque AT ALL!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So if I am correct in stating that a person must KNOW that they are applying torque and rotation to correctly and most effectively do so, does this mean that the games best hitters (who say that they develop batspeed through different ways) could be much better if they knew that they were applying torque and rotation and tried to apply more over a greater portion of the swing?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Or am I completely wrong in saying that more batspeed would be developed if a person knew what caused batspeed and thus more effectively used it(torque and rotation)?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Have the best hitters been using these forces while actually thinking that they were using other forces? If so, why are these forces being accidentally applied?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Please clarify this with me. Thank you... F. Giffrey <<<
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Jack Mankin's reply:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi F. Giffrey:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You stated; "To me, after reading your material, it seems that in order for a person to develop batspeed through torque and rotation, they would be very conscious that they are doing so. I feel that if torque and rotation were to be used, the batter would need to KNOWINGLY apply these forces... they are not natural movements."
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Your statement seems to imply that torque and rotational energy are just a couple of additional forces a batter can choose to apply to develop bat speed. That is not the case. All bat speed generated, whether from a great or weak hitter, will be derived from the amount of torque and rotational energy applied to the bat. Other than gravity, friction and other more minor factors, "torque" and the "transfer of rotational energy" (via a circular hand-path) are the ONLY forces acting on the bat that causes the bat-head to undergo angular displacement (develop bat speed).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I can tell you with absolute certainty that the reason great hitters develop greater bat speed are because their mechanics deliver a greater amount of torque and rotational energy over a greater portion of the swing than do the mechanics of an average hitter. But Mr. Giffrey, I would agree with you, I too, have never heard a single professional hitter say they use torque or rotational energy in their swing.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I would also seriously doubt that hitters like Barry Bonds or Gary Sheffield would say they are consciously pulling the bat-head back toward the catcher before they initiate their swing. They would probably discount the importance of applying top-hand-torque and say they are just bringing the hands back to the launch position. But I can assure you that if they stopped the bat-head at the launch position and initiated the swing by pushing the top-hand forward (instead of continuing to pull back), their production would (and has) immediately drop.
> > > > > > > > > > > Would these great hitters be better off if they better understood the mechanics they are using? I would say the answer is a definite yes. First of all, there are few batting coaches who can help them when they're in a slump. Very, very few coaches truly understand the mechanics of a great hitter's swing. They will probably tell the hitter he needs to go back to the basics - which usually means some form of linear mechanics.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Well, I'm not sure this answers your question, but these are some of my thoughts.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Eric:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Right now Barry Bonds has the best stroke in the Major Leagues. Ichiro's stats pale in comparison to Barry's.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best Wishes,
> > > > > > > > > BHL
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Who in the big's matches Barry stats? Who in the history of baseball can match his last 4-5 years of productivity and offensive outpouring...NOBODY has every pitched and approached a single player like teams are approaching Barry the last few years…With that said, Ichiro's stats and last two season don't pale to anyone...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jack- I see your response as extremely egotistical. To assume that you and a select few others are the only ones in 'the know ' about the mechanics of the swing and what coaching needs to be given regarding how to help a player get out of a slump as you stated ("Very, very few coaches truly understand the mechanics of a great hitter's swing. They will probably tell the hitter he needs to go back to the basics - which usually means some form of linear mechanics.")... In my option is pretty far off base.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And on an aside-something I have not seen much about on this site- the mental side of hitting …mechanics are only half the battle, you can have great mechanics but if you have no clue as to what to look for or the rhythm needed you have a slim chance at hitting the ball. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve simply talked with hitters, and I don’t mean talking mechanic, I mean talking about why they are getting out…most times its NOT mechanical…surprise!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How many big league hitting coaches have you talked with, at what levels have you worked at in this job occupation, talking about- have you spent a season as a hitting coach for any level other then little league? Your premise that if Berry knew more about his mechanics he would be better...? I guarantee Barry has forgotten more then you know...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Did you happen to see ESPN a few months ago...did you catch the clip of Barry taking batting practice with a mitt on his left (back) hand...watch his path to the pitched ball...short, inside and on top...convince Barry that his first move should be perpendicular to the flight of the ball…I’d love to hear his response.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Scott:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ichiro has great stats in the average department. Nevertheless, Bonds, over the last several years, has been near the tops in average, home runs, and runs batted in. Based on these statistics, I would say that Bonds is a more complete player.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best Wishes,
> > > > > > > BHL
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Circular vs angular...in all honesty I think were debating about 3-5 inches...BHL what do you think of my diagram showing the path…?
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Scott:
> > > > >
> > > > > I like your diagram.
> > > > >
> > > > > Too often, individuals tend to splice meanings to make them "right" or "wrong." Personally, I think that all Jack strives for is individuals to have a fundamental understanding of the hand path.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, the waist of many individuals is in the shape of an oval, not a circle. This means that if hands stay tight to the body, they will follow the hips in an oval-shaped pattern. Truthfully, though, thinking about a circular hand path is not as confusing as envisioning one that is in the shape of an oval.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best Wishes,
> > > > > BHL
> > > > > Knight1285@aol.com
> > > > >
> > > > > P.S. Scott, give me about a week or so more to review your overhead. I gave you preliminary feedback, but it will take some time to prepare a full annotation of its strengths and weaknesses. Overall, though, I am as pleased with this presentation as I was about your last one. The most important thing that I see you doing is usual optical examples to help individuals become better hitters.
> > > >
> > > > Hi Jack:
> > > >
> > > > I believe--but could be wrong--that the oval-shaped path was Melvin's idea. Unfortunately, I forgot to give him due credit in my last post. I would like to do that now.
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > BHL, Literary Expert
> > >
> > > I'm a visual learner, however I think just like teaching in the classroom you must account for the various modes of learning, ie. Audio, kinesthetic, visual ect...learners take what they can use and usually disregard the rest... whether it be in the phasing of a desired technique ["inside and on top", "eyes behind the baseball", "feeling the weight between or inside the knees", "letting the ball ride", "hitting the ball out front without getting out front"...a few of my favorites] or the physical feeling of doing it correctly, a more hands on approach as far as physically moving the hitter through the swing, or in the mental pictures that they have in their heads from a slide I show them isolating one aspect of the swing, it should all be for the betterment of their hack…to each his own.
> >
> > Hi Scott:
> >
> > I feel the same way. Teaching one person to visualize a swing in a fixed way might avert disaster for one person, but might actually cause it for the other.
> >
> > Here is my philosophy: the desired position of contact and "cues" on how to achieve it are spelled out by gurus like Jack. Conjoining the actual movements with the actual way of achieving it are up to that person, as Nyman points out.
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> > BHL
>
> BHL,
>
> "...gurus like Jack." I think the word "guru" is a stretch...I'm more comfortable with "snake oil salesman."

Hi Scott:

To each his own.

I do not think his model of teaching is wholly correct. On the other hand, I understand that his advice is free, and has helped many people become better hitters. More precisely, Jack is trying to defend his statements the best way that he can. And, like all information, some of his replies pertaining to expressing a view on a topic might seem illogical. However, when we look for every aspect that we disagree with in a positional essay, the portions of the argument that can help a person often remain overlooked.

In my honest opinion, sometimes presumptions hinder our ability to ajudicate a person's intentions accurately.

I would agree with you that some of Jack's posts can be caustic. You must remember, though, to evaluate people on merit; this is because one's demeanor might or might not parallel what he or she opines about.

There are certain "snake oil salesman," though. Look at our Senate, and its willingness to visit the misdeeds of baseball on Mark McGwire. Now those--excluding certain individuals, who tried to make Major League Baseball responsible for inconsistent steroid testing (e.g., Christopher Shays, and Jim Bunning)--are the real losers.

Best Wishes,
BHL

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> > > > > > > > > > > Obviously, much of what you are saying is correct. But, the comment, ["torque" and the "transfer of rotational energy" (via a circular hand-path) are the ONLY forces acting on the bat that causes the bat-head to undergo angular displacement (develop bat speed)], is not. There is so much more. There are many 'GREAT' hitters who are 'linear' hitters. Hitting isn't all about power! Alot, of these theories would have MANY players "pulling" their hands to the baseball - not "throwing" them. Weight-shift or rotational, that's what creates bat speed... getting your hands to where the ball is going to be in the hitting zone as fast as possible. Try this: NOT rotating at all - and just throwing the hands. The best hitters hit the ball the hardest, the most often. Barry Bonds rotates 'off' the ball, not to it. 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Question/Comment:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Jack, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > To me, after reading your material, it seems that in order for a person to develop batspeed through torque and rotation, they would be very conscious that they are doing so. I feel that if torque and rotation were to be used, the batter would need to KNOWINGLY apply these forces... they are not natural movements. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Many of the games best hitters (i.e. Ken Griffey, Jr., Mark McGwire, Mike Piazza, Nomar Garciaparra, Barry Bonds, etc.) have stated how they develop batspeed, whether it is Weight Shift, Staying inside the ball, Attacking the ball, Cracking the whip, etc., and none of them have said that they use rotation and torque AT ALL! 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > So if I am correct in stating that a person must KNOW that they are applying torque and rotation to correctly and most effectively do so, does this mean that the games best hitters (who say that they develop batspeed through different ways) could be much better if they knew that they were applying torque and rotation and tried to apply more over a greater portion of the swing? 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Or am I completely wrong in saying that more batspeed would be developed if a person knew what caused batspeed and thus more effectively used it(torque and rotation)? 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Have the best hitters been using these forces while actually thinking that they were using other forces? If so, why are these forces being accidentally applied? 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Please clarify this with me. Thank you... F. Giffrey <<<
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Jack Mankin's reply:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi F. Giffrey:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > You stated; "To me, after reading your material, it seems that in order for a person to develop batspeed through torque and rotation, they would be very conscious that they are doing so. I feel that if torque and rotation were to be used, the batter would need to KNOWINGLY apply these forces... they are not natural movements." 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Your statement seems to imply that torque and rotational energy are just a couple of additional forces a batter can choose to apply to develop bat speed. That is not the case. All bat speed generated, whether from a great or weak hitter, will be derived from the amount of torque and rotational energy applied to the bat. Other than gravity, friction and other more minor factors, "torque" and the "transfer of rotational energy" (via a circular hand-path) are the ONLY forces acting on the bat that causes the bat-head to undergo angular displacement (develop bat speed). 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > I can tell you with absolute certainty that the reason great hitters develop greater bat speed are because their mechanics deliver a greater amount of torque and rotational energy over a greater portion of the swing than do the mechanics of an average hitter. But Mr. Giffrey, I would agree with you, I too, have never heard a single professional hitter say they use torque or rotational energy in their swing. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > I would also seriously doubt that hitters like Barry Bonds or Gary Sheffield would say they are consciously pulling the bat-head back toward the catcher before they initiate their swing. They would probably discount the importance of applying top-hand-torque and say they are just bringing the hands back to the launch position. But I can assure you that if they stopped the bat-head at the launch position and initiated the swing by pushing the top-hand forward (instead of continuing to pull back), their production would (and has) immediately drop.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Would these great hitters be better off if they better understood the mechanics they are using? I would say the answer is a definite yes. First of all, there are few batting coaches who can help them when they're in a slump. Very, very few coaches truly understand the mechanics of a great hitter's swing. They will probably tell the hitter he needs to go back to the basics - which usually means some form of linear mechanics. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Well, I'm not sure this answers your question, but these are some of my thoughts.
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Eric:
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Right now Barry Bonds has the best stroke in the Major Leagues. Ichiro's stats pale in comparison to Barry's.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Best Wishes,
> > > > > > > > > > BHL
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Who in the big's matches Barry stats? Who in the history of baseball can match his last 4-5 years of productivity and offensive outpouring...NOBODY has every pitched and approached a single player like teams are approaching Barry the last few years…With that said, Ichiro's stats and last two season don't pale to anyone...
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Jack- I see your response as extremely egotistical. To assume that you and a select few others are the only ones in 'the know ' about the mechanics of the swing and what coaching needs to be given regarding how to help a player get out of a slump as you stated ("Very, very few coaches truly understand the mechanics of a great hitter's swing. They will probably tell the hitter he needs to go back to the basics - which usually means some form of linear mechanics.")... In my option is pretty far off base.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > And on an aside-something I have not seen much about on this site- the mental side of hitting …mechanics are only half the battle, you can have great mechanics but if you have no clue as to what to look for or the rhythm needed you have a slim chance at hitting the ball. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve simply talked with hitters, and I don’t mean talking mechanic, I mean talking about why they are getting out…most times its NOT mechanical…surprise!
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > How many big league hitting coaches have you talked with, at what levels have you worked at in this job occupation, talking about- have you spent a season as a hitting coach for any level other then little league? Your premise that if Berry knew more about his mechanics he would be better...? I guarantee Barry has forgotten more then you know...
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Did you happen to see ESPN a few months ago...did you catch the clip of Barry taking batting practice with a mitt on his left (back) hand...watch his path to the pitched ball...short, inside and on top...convince Barry that his first move should be perpendicular to the flight of the ball…I’d love to hear his response.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Hi Scott:
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Ichiro has great stats in the average department. Nevertheless, Bonds, over the last several years, has been near the tops in average, home runs, and runs batted in. Based on these statistics, I would say that Bonds is a more complete player.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Best Wishes,
> > > > > > > > BHL
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Circular vs angular...in all honesty I think were debating about 3-5 inches...BHL what do you think of my diagram showing the path…?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Hi Scott:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I like your diagram.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Too often, individuals tend to splice meanings to make them "right" or "wrong." Personally, I think that all Jack strives for is individuals to have a fundamental understanding of the hand path.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > However, the waist of many individuals is in the shape of an oval, not a circle. This means that if hands stay tight to the body, they will follow the hips in an oval-shaped pattern. Truthfully, though, thinking about a circular hand path is not as confusing as envisioning one that is in the shape of an oval.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Best Wishes,
> > > > > > BHL
> > > > > > Knight1285@aol.com
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > P.S. Scott, give me about a week or so more to review your overhead. I gave you preliminary feedback, but it will take some time to prepare a full annotation of its strengths and weaknesses. Overall, though, I am as pleased with this presentation as I was about your last one. The most important thing that I see you doing is usual optical examples to help individuals become better hitters.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hi Jack:
> > > > > 
> > > > > I believe--but could be wrong--that the oval-shaped path was Melvin's idea. Unfortunately, I forgot to give him due credit in my last post. I would like to do that now.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > BHL, Literary Expert
> > > > 
> > > > I'm a visual learner, however I think just like teaching in the classroom you must account for the various modes of learning, ie. Audio, kinesthetic, visual ect...learners take what they can use and usually disregard the rest... whether it be in the phasing of a desired technique ["inside and on top", "eyes behind the baseball", "feeling the weight between or inside the knees", "letting the ball ride", "hitting the ball out front without getting out front"...a few of my favorites] or the physical feeling of doing it correctly, a more hands on approach as far as physically moving the hitter through the swing, or in the mental pictures that they have in their heads from a slide I show them isolating one aspect of the swing, it should all be for the betterment of their hack…to each his own.
> > > 
> > > Hi Scott:
> > > 
> > > I feel the same way. Teaching one person to visualize a swing in a fixed way might avert disaster for one person, but might actually cause it for the other.
> > > 
> > > Here is my philosophy: the desired position of contact and "cues" on how to achieve it are spelled out by gurus like Jack. Conjoining the actual movements with the actual way of achieving it are up to that person, as Nyman points out.
> > > 
> > > Best Wishes,
> > > BHL
> > 
> > BHL,
> > 
> > "...gurus like Jack." I think the word "guru" is a stretch...I'm more comfortable with "snake oil salesman."
> 
> Hi Scott:
> 
> To each his own.
> 
> I do not think his model of teaching is wholly correct. On the other hand, I understand that his advice is free, and has helped many people become better hitters. More precisely, Jack is trying to defend his statements the best way that he can. And, like all information, some of his replies pertaining to expressing a view on a topic might seem illogical. However, when we look for every aspect that we disagree with in a positional essay, the portions of the argument that can help a person often remain overlooked. 
> 
> In my honest opinion, sometimes presumptions hinder our ability to ajudicate a person's intentions accurately.
> 
> I would agree with you that some of Jack's posts can be caustic. You must remember, though, to evaluate people on merit; this is because one's demeanor might or might not parallel what he or she opines about.
> 
> There are certain "snake oil salesman," though. Look at our Senate, and its willingness to visit the misdeeds of baseball on Mark McGwire. Now those--excluding certain individuals, who tried to make Major League Baseball responsible for inconsistent steroid testing (e.g., Christopher Shays, and Jim Bunning)--are the real losers.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> BHL

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